Fixed positions make things more flexible? I fought this very same battle using tables back in the 90s. I need to write special code for IE? Eventually it works, but at what cost? HTML tables impose a more rigid structure on the content than a div. In addition there are the little seemingly obscure css properties that need to be inserted to make certain things function properly in general, or with older browsers. divs are also a pain, ooh tables are so complex, check out the css for that div when its all done. Tables should only be used to display tabular data but what is tabular data is debatable. CSS handles the design and feel a part of an internet page. Thats it. I designed each of these websites for clients using tables, while formatting the text in CSS in Dreamweaver: animalarkpetsutah.com Im not trying to be political, but when Obama kept repeating change a hundred times a day during his campaign I questioned it because change is not the same as progress. Like I said the debate the wont die. I think theres more potential for errors with tables, but I know there are people who can code a search friendly site thats still table-driven. CSS, CSS 1 up to CSS3, result in creating of confusion among web browsers. An example of this lie is what proponents of divs like to show off by only having a few divs compared to a table structure, but in order to get even close to having the same properties as table we have to use something like the last example in http://www.vanseodesign.com/css/equal-height-columns/ as the others are just faking the appearance with a background image. You can separate style and structure with both css and tables. How does it suggest we should use tables? With a div-based layout you could make this change in your stylesheet alone. Early on you had to use tables to layout a site well. I dont even have a copy of IE to work with. Cascading sheet not only simplifies website development, but also simplifies the maintenance as a change of one line of code affects the whole web site and maintenance time. It is easy to customize a web page as it can be done by merely altering a modular file. Believe me, the clean code you talk about it gone. The only time I ever use tables anymore is to quickly horizontally and -vertically- oppose an image or something else on a temporary coming soon type page. . between the 2 techniques when in truth, there is little distinction to be made. What Im saying is the entirety of your layout shouldnt be one table inside another inside another. That flow is what needs to be eliminated! 2. Justin, apparently I named this post well, since the debate never seems to die. rightBarExploreMoreList!=""&&($(".right-bar-explore-more").css("visibility","visible"),$(".right-bar-explore-more .rightbar-sticky-ul").html(rightBarExploreMoreList)), Difference between CSS Grid and CSS Flexbox. And if you want to use a wysiwyg editor, they just dont work properly anymore in 2019. And all of this is absolutely hilarious when you attempt to make it work in multiple versions of IE and every other browser, let alone on an iPad or iPhone. When I first started learning css I did run into problems making things work cross browser. Learning to layout an entire site with divs and css is the hardest part, but I promise itll be worth it. The flexibility is in your html structure. You are a part of an ever growing majority. it could also be your own code or more likely that your code and my code arent working well other. easier to maintain less code and less complexity to the structure makes things easier to find and change. Artificial intelligence designer salary. Search engines are interested in your content, not your code.. There are plenty of easy ways to create equal height columns in css. Luckily, modern sites have actually become pretty basic. Using CSS, you will control the color of the text, the design of fonts, the spacing between paragraphs, how columns are sized and laid out, etc. Different levels of CSS i.e. I look forward to the day when a page renders the same way in all browsers for specific CSS statements. CSS has the impressive benefit of being consistent. And that, in my view, should be the only thing that qualifies you to comment on the number of passes the browser makes when rendering a page. I also dont have an issue if you want to use them to display a list of links in a menu. In theory, CSS is the answer, the problem is that the way browsers deal with SOME of it is not only not standardized, but can actually have the exact opposite result for example position: absolute can cause a column to move to the left in one browser and cause it to move down in another, and cause it to move up in yet another. I have nothing against using tables. CSS is very useful for styles regardless of how you do the layout. E.g. The phone number and search can either be wrapped together in another div thats floated to the right or they could each be floated to the right independently. 2. When you ask about table type content with css do you mean using css to show tabular data or are you asking more about how to style tables? Then I format the text in CSS adding padding and margins where needed. A div is a more generic container that doesnt impose any structure on the content within. Both my table and div layouts use css equally. I disagree with you that both are techniques with little distinction. Easy to learn: JavaScript is easy to learn. With Googles latest algorithm update (Caffeine) emphasising page load times as a SE ranking factor it is now more important than ever from an SEO stand point to reduce the amount of code on a webpage. Ive done a few and have always used photoshop for layout and then created html tables based on that layout. Once a again, thank you for the info! The order and nesting of the divs matters. A 10 MS difference is meaningless. I think your experience is similar to what most people whove made the transition from tables to css go through. This topic often leads to discussions that arent this thought out. I dont think anyone is arguing in favor of html attributes. Learning at write CSS layouts can be tricky, especially if you become familiar with usage tables, but here's why CSS is your best programming bet. You can definitely hire someone to create a template for the site if you want. Specifically, it would take more than one div to create a row cell structure so when you need to display data in that structure its actually exactly the same amount of html whether you use a table or nested divs. 4) Separation of Style and Content I guess this one is related #1, ease of updating? That leads to easier maintenance, more freedom in design, and quicker load times. My point about flexibility isnt simply flipping columns. This guide helps you choose the right option for optimal performance and data safety. There are a few downsides while using CSS. It helps to form spontaneous and consistent changes. The best things in life are not necessarily easy or easy to learn. It could be because of my familiarity with css, but I dont think the last method is hard to understand. I think it gets an unfair rap sometimes. As for your disadvantage I have to disagree. Its now moving on from the CSS methods that replaced tables and using CSS thats being written specifically to lay out sites. (i know theres gotta be one but thats almost another argument for CSS over tables multiple ways you can go about it even). In modern times, people usually wait for just a couple of seconds for a website to load. Ive been coding on and off since the mid 90s and have been hearing about tables are only for tabular data blah blah blah for years. If youre having to spend the vast majority of your time finding workarounds for IE then youve probably been doing something wrong. So does laying out a site with tables. By a few I mean less than 5. Web designers who take the time to learn css dont have the same problems youre seeing. Disadvantages of OS Maps (3) Scale needed, instantly out of date, doesn't have seasonal changes. I do think more code means more chances of making a show stopping kind of error. So Ill be more explicit. Sometimes they write for things called tabloids, or articles of paragraphs arranged in tabular form. To design in CSS is far better, by the subject of order, maintenance, accessibility, navigability and thousand reasons more. Different levels of CSS can confuse users: Improve Your comment suggests your commenting on the title of this post and not the content of the post. he argument is made by people comparing learning something new to learning something they already know well.. Learning at write CSS layouts can be tricky, especially if you become familiar with usage tables, but here's why CSS is your best programming bet. While you probably wont appreciate hearing this, the more likely cause for the problems you see is your own knowledge of css. The load time though, is now reason enough to recommend css over tables for seo. Teams. With equal column heights, yes its easier to create them with tables than with divs alone, though if you look at the last of the 4 methods I described youll see its not hard to create them with divs and css and it still uses less code than using tables. I can bring myself to use tables, but css severly restricts my deisgns because of cross-browser compatibility. They dont need a lot of fancy features or tons of content. Why does it matter how divs are rendered as long as the document written with strong conventions and good semantics? But some things can be said about the style of a website. After a week of wandering around the interwebs I still cant figure out, nor have I found any tutorials, on how to create a header like the one I have, one where there are three colums where the middle expands to fit a wider browser. Thanks Craig. document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); Your email address will not be published. CSS (divs) is hard to learn Simply not true. Divs can work independently from each other. 4. Believe me, Im not making the argument for convoluted nested tables with colspan settings, etc, nor am I arguing against semantically correct documents. Its not hard. My goal wasnt to bash tables, but to point out why I think css is the better approach to layout. Thats why theres more than one method in the post. Let me apologize in advance because what Im about to say may come across as harsh. CSS is a standard across the board. By I never broke any of your layouts or created display bugs in whatever you produced. Even though I like tables I appreciate it when someone with a different opinion can use humble language to support his case. 1) Inconsistent Browser Support Different browsers will render CSS layout differently as a result of browser bugs or lack of support for various CSS features. Im glad your process works for you, but that doesnt change my opinion. Theres simply less code to create a div than there is a table with a row and cell. This is the same when using divs. The similar change affects on all the browsers. Whats the deal? Just for the entirety of your layout. After making the changes we need to confirm the compatibility if they appear. This is the same as $1,927 each week or $8,352 every month. Thanks Rami and interesting analogy. I have used css and divs to create multiple lists for a table structure with four side by side columns. If you were to point one out to me Id either fix it or explain why it might not be working for you and probably even help you make it work. Its easier because youre more familiar with using tables. Nah, i disagree.. if im the only one whos going to work with the site, i go for tables, its 1000x faster and easier to get a decent layout. One issue is that different browsers have different deffinitions of the padding and the margin variables. Better Website Speed For a website to function efficiently, it should have a faster load time. 2. The limiting factors isnt the language, its my ability to use the language. It permits online videos to be seen without using third-party plug-ins. WebMoreover, an externally linked CSS file, once loaded the first time, does not have to be reloaded and re-read on every page. CSS, CSS 2, CSS 3 are often quite confusing. Separate of style and structure is less about whether or not you use css or tables. Examples might be simplified to improve reading and learning. But I guess when all you have lying around is a hammer then every problem looks like a nail. No technique is designed to be used in isolation. Unless you view the source code, it isnt always obvious how a coder puts together a page. And, then I can see what theyve done with the code as far as CSS goes. Dont blame the language. I understand people have old code and sometimes they just need to fix it. Im still using the spacer.gif to tweak spacing. This is one of the reasons why there are people who prefer tables instead of using this kind of trickery and black magic to fake the appearance of what tables can do without all the extreme measures. One example, is to have a banner across the top, a side banner down the left, with a background image that must align with the top banner in the corner, and then content within the area below the top banner and to the right of the side banner. Tables are simply not faster to create. I honestly dont care what they call it.. as long as it still works like tables. WebUsing CSS tableless design will provide your website visitors better usability and accessibility, faster page load times with greater, more elegant design possibilities. I think many people who spent the time learning how hold on to that knowledge instead of trying to learn the css way and in holding on to the known create arguments to defend their use of tables. The industry is now moving again toward a responsive design workflow. plays an important role, by using CSS you simply got to specify a repeated style for element once & use it Thats why I wrote this post. This debate is mainly from those who code by hand I would think. Even if we accept the argument that learning to use divs is difficult that doesnt make tables a better approach. The problems I run into are on updates: adding a few lines here, and changing the text there. Granted, CSS loads faster and for big websites is easier to maintain for large websites, but after trying to convert the newindex1 page from tables to CSS, Im having a very hard time understanding why CSS is better for small websites. Laying out a site with divs has a learning curve. Granted its not the kind of change youre likely to make, but as an example it shows the greater flexibility and control you have in developing with divs. Ive been doing web design since the beginning of the internet as a hobby and now professionally and I like a combination of both worlds. You say that people apparently think tables are easier than css because they already know tables, but I think youre wrong there. Thats always going to be better done using css. html. While using W3Schools, you agree to have read and accepted our. I believe Whats best in a given scenario depends mostly on the skill set of the person doing the job. My bad on missing the context of your statement. WebCSS is clearly preferable in cases where presentational markup and CSS support the same kind of design, no one in their right mind would argue that font-tags are better than It is in lists of links in one column and descriptions in another column, with more data in a third or forth column. Im not suggesting its trivial to learn css, but its also not accurate to say the language itself is causing your specific layout issues. However there are other methods to abstract changes that need to be applied to more then one file into a single file. CSS changes are device friendly. Table layout; Multiple-column layout; Each technique has its uses, advantages, and disadvantages. Appreciate it and I think this post being more recent is the more relevant one. Theres no need for a I support reasonable use of tables for backward compatibility. What I will say though is that every person Ive ever met who was equally capable at using both css and tables chooses to use css. In fact I use them all the time when I want to present data. It might not be that one line of css is off, but more that the way that part of the page is structured in general could be done differently. Having done programming I understand reusability of code and the ease of making changes in one place for large websites, but this is little good with small sites. Getting back to IE, the 3rd method you used with negative margins comes close but once again special considerations need to be taken with IE for this design, and yeah its not the fault of css but IE, however when the majority of your target audience maybe using this browser its important it works properly hence the use of tables which may result in more ugly looking code unfortunately but it is just one of the requirements until microsoft clean their act up. Covering popular subjects like HTML, CSS, JavaScript, Python, SQL, Java, and many, many more. All the pro-css designers Ive ever worked with have tended to be full of shit, constantly creating new display bugs in production. Regardless the table div comparison above is not accurate. I agree with you about css3-grids. Yes you use less code using divs than tables. I learned by reading the book Eric Meyer on CSS. For instance, if you want colmns with different colour backgrounds to be the same length, use a simple table and style it with css. He takes a layout done in tables and works to change it to divs and css. To me, its the most pleasing layout shape. Let us have a glance on the benefits and drawbacks of CSS. Ive linked to this article in a post as part of a project Im doing on web design styles. Every table cell is dependent on the other table cells in its row to maintain the structure. the ability to do this is what switched me from using the table-based layouts I was first taught. You can create the same shape in a number of ways. Its is also much quicker to use tables, and hey, yeah, once in a while it is nice to be able to glance at your code in a wysywig and actually see what it looks like. I guess Ive never been convinced of the seo benefits. In my opinion, combining table layout with CSS works great. I agree with you about seo. You can do that regardless of how you structure your layout. Replacing one with the other will lead to unnecessary complication. WebJavaScript advantages Fast speed: JavaScript is executed on the client side thats why it is very fast. The form on the bottom left of the homepage is an html feedback form through http://www.freedback.com. 5. You can either explicitly set the values when browsers are behaving differently or use a css reset file like the ones from Eric Meyer or Yahoo. Research Tables are still very useful for layout given that most sites are still essentially boxes that never move, but adjust in size as needed. 4. You make the assumption that because it takes you 5 hours to develop a layout in css that its the same for other people. How to check which tab is active using Material UI ? There is nothing wrong using CSS and Tables. If your visitors are using IE you need to support IE and whether its the code or the browser that gets things wrong is irrelevant. As for formatting and style, you should use a clear and descriptive title that reflects the main topic and keywords of your paper. Thanks! acknowledge that you have read and understood our, Data Structure & Algorithm Classes (Live), Data Structures & Algorithms in JavaScript, Data Structure & Algorithm-Self Paced(C++/JAVA), Full Stack Development with React & Node JS(Live), Android App Development with Kotlin(Live), Python Backend Development with Django(Live), DevOps Engineering - Planning to Production, GATE CS Original Papers and Official Keys, ISRO CS Original Papers and Official Keys, ISRO CS Syllabus for Scientist/Engineer Exam, Interview Preparation For Software Developers. Whats the difference? The argument isnt what a div can do vs what a table can do. Connect and share knowledge within a single location that is structured and easy to search. I think there are appropriate uses for tables, but I dont think the overall layout of a page is one of those appropriate uses. My process doesnt involve spending hours resolving cross-browser compatibility issues by the way. It is less complex therefore the effort are significantly reduced. Nice post. I think much of the reason css vs tables is still debated is the misinformation people on both sides put out there. If you ever visited a page that showed nothing for a few seconds before everything suddenly appeared, that time was likely your browser making its first pass over the table structure behind the page. 3. Calling this debate css vs tables is actually inaccurate. Read the post to find out why. I wrote it to answer the question. Again though you may notice in the post I dont use seo as a reason to use css. I make a change to the template file and boom, it changes on all pages. The tool emits old school attribute heavy html tables but I wrote a little javascript parser that seperates things out into clean html and css. The fact that different browsers and different versions of browsers look at these and other variables differently is a really pain. Thanks for the online references, Steven. 1. Go to Table Properties > Row > Enter a value in the Specify height box. Using isnt semantic and isnt CSS. I too started out doing HTML with tables, and as soon as I saw the CSS light, Ive never been able to see it any other way. As I see it, table layouts have precisely two advantages: 1. I didnt create the overall frame to the conversation. It is easier with divs, but it can also be done with tables. Your text should reflow with changes. I just wrote this post a couple months before Matt Cutts mentioned how some at Google were pushing for that to be a factor. Incidentially you do provide 100% of the code because you show it in your examples, in the source. I am in the middle of a major project that we tried to code with proper CSS, but its incredibly frustrating and time consuming. If you read the post youll see I never once said you couldnt use tables. Create a CSS Fireflies background using HTML/CSS, CSS pseudo elements every CSS developer should know. element: Notice that the table in the examples above have double borders. This is why divs arent superior for layout coz they cant even do what tables do out-of-the-box even with all the complicated different solutions people have invented to try and get close. I wrote a 2 part tutorial on turning design image into a css layout for another site. Developers need to realize that its okay to use tables when you have to display data and you need to use divs when you have to create layouts. CSS plays an important role, by using CSS you simply got to specify a repeated style for element once & use it multiple times as because CSS will automatically apply the required styles. Then I had to make changes to one site and thought there had to be a better way. If I throw out a website which has no padding or un symetrial or miss-aligned text I would be asked to start over. Thanks for this. It could mean one less page they get to crawl on your site. My old webpage is ugly (www.dragora.com) so I started to develop a new page (www.dragora.com/newindex1.asp). Do I have to have a separate div for each line? However, you can build a great site using tables and a poor site using css. CSS works differently on different browsers. Tables to me make for a more complicated structure that often create even more problems. Ive been told I can create any design feasible with CSS, so I have offered the above URLs as examples you can either confirm or be dubious about relative to their successful conversion to CSS from tables. Style adjustment is more convenient. A square peg and a round hole can both be perfect examples of each and yet not work well together. Heavy image use and Flash still seem to be the biggest factors in speed. Youll have more control over how your page displays with divs that can aid in how a screenreader sees your content, but again you can create equally accessible pages using either approach. What were you supposed to use? Lastly Id like to say that I dont think problem is with tables or divs, but what html has to offer, there isnt really anything specific for that type of design, tables werent meant to be used for layout but data instead, there hasnt been anything until now with css3 and css3-grid positioning perhaps http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-grid/. Discover the best hard disk format for your Mac! Web designers needs to use few lines of programming for every page improving site speed. Artificial intelligence design advantages: How can AI help to design? Maybe Ill apply changes to my test pages as my home page changes and track the time involved. If table tags were called tags, nobody would be complaining, and there would be no ongoing debate. I hope that helps answer some of the questions. Out of curiosity did you read the post? I promise Im not laughing. All you really need to do float the customer service phone number and search form to the right. Now that they have indicated that load times will be a ranking factor I would agree that divs make more sense. You either learn code or you use a 1990s style basic editor where you can assemble a site in minutes with tables that will adjust to a any modern display or device. I think tables were a great way to layout a website once upon a time. If you want your page to behave like a table or part of it, use a table. Where exactly are my tutorials not accurate? The places where this occurs has problems with that flow. Wish me luck. I do think css is the better option, but feel free to develop sites any way you want. I have used table-based layouts for a few years and have started using css to mainly style text. I think youre right about people reading do not use tables and missing the part about layouts. Web Explain the advantages and disadvantage of using stylesheets; Use CSS to create web pages. They seem to work quite well for many people who arent you. WebW3Schools offers free online tutorials, references and exercises in all the major languages of the web. I also kept all my university textbooks just in case I would need them guess what? A table does. Id have to see the css youre using to understand why youre having problems. For As you can see I still strongly favor css layouts, but I think many of the arguments on either side of the debate get a little silly at times. The look of an HTML table can be greatly improved with CSS: To specify table borders in CSS, use the border property. If you send me a link Ill be happy to take a look. What makes tables harder is that its too easy to get lost in the structure and edit the wrong cell. My primary UI guy is a CSS ideologue and spends half his time fighting with stylesheets to make it work in every browser. Im not going to tell you that youre doing anything wrong or evil or that the world is going to come to an end. Nothing you said is true and most of it doesnt make any sense. Over the past few years Ive been slowly converting them to divs and CSS. IE is a lot more standards compliant than youre giving it credit for. As far as it being easier for you to code it with a table now, thats probably true. Advantages of Inline CSS: You can easily and quickly insert CSS rules to an HTML page. This is one of those debates that never seems to go away and I guess Im not exactly doing my part to make it go away with this post. The performance claims Ive read about here and elsewhere on the web for divs over tables are over-hyped I found only a 10 ms advantage for the div technique over the table technique. I feel the same about maintain tables-based sites. First Im glad to see you making the switch. (10-20 is most common.) Not something you need for a two column layout of course. I think anyone that codes by hand knows that CSS/div is easier to work with in that way. I dont use DreamWeaver and you dont need to add fixed dimensions everywhere to make divs work. The reset files basically set many things back to 0. I feel like Im at a confessional since most web designers dont do it this way, but my designs image heavy and clients have been very pleased with my work. If you arent its not because of the language. Where layout is concerned though, I think the cons of using tables outweigh the pros and so favor using css. I also believe the opposite, theres no point using table rendering if you DO want them to be independent. I find that if I have to spend more than a 5 hours trying to figure out the combination of CSS statements to achieve the result I want on just one page, and I can do it in a table (a VERY SIMPLE table), in less than 15 minutes, then the dream of CSS has not been achieved yet. I typed along with all the code samples and it helped me a lot. Divs dont require complicated css. As networks improve the speed advantage becomes less meaningful and for a small site its not going to be a big deal either. Global changes are easier: If youre using external styles, you make a change in one place and its automatically propagated to all the pages in the system. I am about to take on a new website project, first one in 8 years. If you look at the source code of most sites (especially the ones you like) youll discover that most and nearly all use css for page layout. This post is framed the way it is, because its a reaction to posts framing the topic as html tables are better than css. I avoid tables and table-cell in almost all layouts to avoid ridicule, but deep down I truly believe that anything else is convoluted and meant to create more jobs for web developers.